Voter Fraud? What Voter Fraud?

[CD]

BREAKING VIDEO: Tim Tebow and Tom Brady Register to Vote in Minnesota http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/breaking-video-tim-tebow-and-tom-brady-register-to-vote-in-minnesota/

[Sasquatch]

Well, if you dare ask for ID you are a racist who is trying to suppress the poor and the minorities.  

Faux Brady and Tebow are the exception. And it would be totally ok if they were to vote for the D's. 

[NCVol]

First of all, they're not showing voter fraud.  The GOP spent years under W. trying to prove voter fraud, and we've had a few DOZEN cases prosecuted.  What you're witnessing is potential voter registration fraud.  And until someone votes as Thomas Brady, the elections have been affected ZERO.  Same with the supposed registrations of Mickey Mouse, the offensive line of the Pittsburg Steelers, Super Man, etc. 

And yes, if people are willing to swear to a lie, and risk a $10,000 fine and five years in jail to commit VOTER fraud, it's possible to commit fraud.  Next thing you know, they'll do a video showing how easy it is to commit tax fraud.  Just don't put your income on the return!!  See, we need to have an audit of EVERY RETURN since it's so easy to make up deductions!!!  Of course, you have the potential to go to JAIL in both cases.... 

So, the voter ID laws are to address a "problem" that no one can show exists in a number larger than the number killed by lightning strikes each year, aka a trivial problem.  And the question is whether the solution to the problem, which WILL prevent eligible voters from voting, this we KNOW, is a positive, since it the problem it's supposed to solve does not exist other than in trivial amounts. 

For example, lets take another problem - people lying about where they live so they can vote in, or perhaps run for office in, a particular district.  Just this week the Indiana Sec. of State, a republican, was convicted of actual voter fraud, felonies.  And the crime he's guilty of, the Sec. of State, is using his ex wife's address to run for office.  This is voter fraud, actual voter fraud.  Ann Coulter committed voter fraud by using her lawyers office to register to vote, a crime.  Maybe we need laws that require a visit from an election official to verify the locations sworn to by republicans as their house REALLY IS THEIR HOUSE!!!????  Otherwise, who can prevent right wingers from simply moving their voting address into close race districts? NOTHING!!  We KNOW it happens, in fact it's an epidemic, we have two cases!!! 

They WILL have a disproportionate effect on those without a current ID, aka the poor, who live in places where they don't need a car, aka in cities, or the old, who no longer drive, and those populations HAPPEN to vote primarily for democrats.... 

Look, if you want to say, so what, this will help republicans overall, so you're for it, GREAT!!  But it can't come as a surprise that the GOP is pushing HARD for this, and it's because of the known effect it will have, which is to suppress the votes of poor people living in cities, and the poor old without drivers licenses. 

[CD]

NCVol, your specialty for the Cause must be distraction and diversion. Your response to the video is ridiculous.

“First of all, they're not showing voter fraud.  The GOP spent years under W. trying to prove voter fraud, and we've had a few DOZEN cases prosecuted.  What you're witnessing is potential voter registration fraud.” - NCVol

Duh! I think it is obvious to anyone that the video did not intend to capture actual voter fraud. Rather, and as is obvious to anyone, it shows just how very easy it is for voter fraud to occur in Minnesota. You or I could register to vote in Minnesota. And if no one files a formal complaint, our absentee ballots will count.

Actually, our fraudulent votes will count even if someone does file a complaint. Any complaint would arise after the vote, i.e., after our votes were officially counted. And who would have sufficient knowledge to file such a complaint? Answer: No one. We would easily get away with it, and even submit as many additional fraudulent ballots as we pleased. This is why so few cases of voter fraud are prosecuted – it is damn near impossible to prove it after the fact. The video shows clearly how very easy and undetectable the fraud is. But I’m sure you understand this. Your ridiculous post is not based on ignorance. Only a shameless leftist apologist could even attempt to justify the Minnesota “system” as shown clearly in the video, or claim, in effect, that just because voter fraud is easy to commit, and virtually undetectable, doesn’t mean that it occurs in any significant numbers. Yeah, right.

Your IRS analogy is also ridiculous. Too ridiculous to honor with the time it would take to answer it, while you smirk, knowing yourself that it is ridiculous.

The Indiana Election official’s case is being appealed. I have read details of the case, and I agree that the conviction was an injustice and should be appealed. And it had nothing at all to do with fabricating numerous invalid voter registrations. Again, just another attempt at diversion.

Yet again, it is clear that your intentions are dishonorable here. And no, that is no insult to a leftist, because the only honor a leftist recognizes is the honor of power, and anything, any tactic, any lies, any dishonesty and any deception necessary to obtain and retain political power is honorable to the Left. Ethics are relative to a leftist. ( “The judgment of the ethics of means is dependent on the political position of those sitting in judgment.” [Saul Alithe nsky, Rules for Radicals, p. 130] What is ethical to a leftist is anything that advances the Leftist cause. Understanding this puts all of your obfuscations in perspective. To “. . .attempt to answer all objections on the basis of logic and merit [is], with few exceptions. . . a futile procedure.” [Saul Alinsky, Reveille for Radicals, p. 125]. When logic and merit suit you, you will employ them. When they don’t, obfuscate, deflect, whatever it takes. The goal in either case is the same – Change, which is current euphemism for radical socialist societal transformation.

[NCVol]

Duh! I think it is obvious to anyone that the video did not intend to capture actual voter fraud.

Right, so you titled the thread,"Voter Fraud? What Voter Fraud?"  Can't imagine where I got the idea that the video was going to show voter fraud...  

You or I could register to vote in Minnesota. And if no one files a formal complaint, our absentee ballots will count.

Right, I'm sure we could.  We'd also risk a $10,000 fine and 5 years in jail for doing it.  Worth it to you?  So that we can put a vote or two in the right column on election day?  

How many voters would the evil democrats need to fabricate to sway an election?  Thousands?  At least that for a state race, hundreds at least in specific districts for the local mayor or city council.  Sure, there are races decided by fewer votes, but you can't know that in advance, it would take a month or two at least to get the registrations done in time, so you'd have to risk jail time by fabricating thousands of no ID voters, depend on no one noticing this surge of registrations, checking them after the fact, etc.  THOUSANDS, in the hope that isn't at all certain that the thousands of fabricated votes will actually make a difference in a VERY tight race come election day.  Sounds...implausible.  

Actually, our fraudulent votes will count even if someone does file a complaint. Any complaint would arise after the vote, i.e., after our votes were officially counted. And who would have sufficient knowledge to file such a complaint? Answer: No one. We would easily get away with it, and even submit as many additional fraudulent ballots as we pleased. This is why so few cases of voter fraud are prosecuted – it is damn near impossible to prove it after the fact.

Just so I'm clear, your basic premise is the total lack of any evidence whatsoever that detectable voter fraud is taking place is......proof that it's a cancer that must be stricken with voter ID laws.  Okee Dokee.  

And it's impossible to prove after the fact, because you have a permanent record of made up people living at made up addresses who supposedly cast votes on election day.  And this is impossible to prove because you have a record of all the voters, and their registrations, and either bogus SSN or License #s, or listing no ID, and it's.....impossible to prove that THOUSANDS of fictional Timothy Tebows didn't live at THOUSANDS of fictional addresses ...... because.....  sorry, I'm lost here.  Help me out.  

Seems damn easy to prove to me.  You just need someone cross checking names and addresses.  Should be lots and lots of good lists of residents available in this day of computers and the internet.  For example, you might run NCVol against a list of known residents of Minnesota.  I won't show up.  Others who DO live there won't show up - new residents, people not working but living in someone else's house, etc. - and so it won't be simple, but out of that initial list will be thousands of people who the State has NO RECORD OF EVER LIVING THERE.  Can't believe a hack private investigator couldn't take that list and find thousands of false people.  

And the fact is there is absolutely no evidence that this kind of thing has occurred anywhere EVER.  And we've had lax registration laws since the founding. The perhaps made up stories of people casting votes for dead people meant actual people were registered!  I've never heard of a case of made up fictional voters being discovered and prosecuted, and it's simply not legitimate to claim that LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER is PROOF.  

I have no evidence Mitch Daniels has sex with his dog, but that kind of thing would happen in his house and there would be no witness other than the dog, who can't talk.....  So it's very hard to prove!!  That's why there haven't been any stories about it. How are you going to prove it - ask the dog??!!!  Don't think so.... 

Furthermore, there are easier ways.  Just corrupt the count!  With electronic voting machines, it's easier than ever!!  Or you can purge voters likely to vote for the other guy in a number of ways - thousands of them - without much work, sometimes even legally, bogus felon lists, for example worked in Florida.  Voter caging is illegal, but the GOP does it regularly.  That would be easier, with less risk of getting caught, more likely to affect the outcome, than fabricating thousands of voters out of thin air.  

The Indiana Election official’s case is being appealed. I have read details of the case, and I agree that the conviction was an injustice and should be appealed. And it had nothing at all to do with fabricating numerous invalid voter registrations. Again, just another attempt at diversion.

Yes, it had nothing to do with fabricating numerous invalid voter REGISTRATIONS.  In fact, no case anywhere has had to do with "fabricating numerous invalid voter registrations that went on to vote."  Kind of my point.  It IS voter fraud, however, actual real live voter fraud.  

And just so I'm clear, it's voter fraud if you or me register to vote in the wrong district in Minnesota, but it's not voter fraud when the Secretary of State registers to vote in the wrong district in Indiana.  He moves, uses his ex-wife's address so he can continue to get his salary, and it's a travesty that should be appealed.  

(BTW, no one has suggested that it be appealed, just that they're petitioning for the FELONIES punishable by jail time to be reduced to misdemeanors.)

Again, see, voter fraud has SERIOUS consequences.  You're arguing for voter ID laws because you're worried about voter fraud.  But when it actually happens, you excuse it and want the penalties for the serious crime of voter fraud waived, for the Statewide officer charged with enforcing voter fraud.  

You can't get much higher up on the hypocrisy scale than that.  I'd call it a 10 out of 10!  

So, let's just say "And no, that is no insult to a leftist, because the only honor a leftist recognizes is the honor of power, and anything, any tactic, any lies, any dishonesty and any deception necessary to obtain and retain political power is honorable to the Left. Ethics are relative to a leftist." is something that I'll wear as a badge of honor from someone with that kind of situational ethics.  


BTW, I think it's a little unbelievable that you take this guy's word.  I saw the Fox story where he claimed he lived with his ex-wife for four days a week.  And that he didn't live with his fiance, in the house he bought for the two of them and that it was a travesty of justice!!!  And you know how much of that evidence he put up at trial where it could be cross examined, where if he lied he'd be subject to perjury?  NOTHING.  NADA.  ZERO.  Didn't call his ex-wife or his fiance to simply confirm his story.  Odd don't you think.  He wouldn't have to testify, he could have had just his fiance testify.  You think maybe subjecting HER to perjury charges to save his political career wasn't a good thing to do as a newlywed??  

I'd think that would be a very bad way to start a marriage.  "Honey, I just need a little favor.  Can you go to court and lie for me?  I really doubt if they'll charge you with perjury if you're caught, Sweetie.  Thanks, you're the best wife EVER!!"  

 

Just one more thing, you know FAR more about Saul Alinski than I do - never heard of the guy till Glenn Beck started going off on him.  It's made up fantasy that us liberals have even heard of his book till you guys fabricated this straw man.  

[CD]

"Just one more thing, you know FAR more about Saul Alinski than I do - never heard of the guy till Glenn Beck started going off on him.  It's made up fantasy that us liberals have even heard of his book till you guys fabricated this straw man. " - NCVol

Right. Is Hillary Clinton a liberal? She wrote a 92 page thesis about a straw man, someone she never heard of?

Think Barack Obama never heard of Saul Alinsky? From discoverthenetworks.org:

Three of Obama's mentors in Chicago were trained at the Alinsky-founded Industrial Areas Foundation. (The Developing Communities Project itself was an affiliate of the Gamaliel Foundation, whose modus operandi for the creation of “a more just and democratic society” is rooted firmly in the Alinsky method.)

One of Obama's early mentors in the Alinsky method, Mike Kruglik, would later say the following about Obama:

"He was a natural, the undisputed master of agitation, who could engage a room full of recruiting targets in a rapid-fire Socratic dialogue, nudging them to admit that they were not living up to their own standards. As with the panhandler, he could be aggressive and confrontational. With probing, sometimes personal questions, he would pinpoint the source of pain in their lives, tearing down their egos just enough before dangling a carrot of hope that they could make things better."

For several years, Obama himself taught workshops on the Alinsky method. Also, beginning in the mid-1980s, Obama worked with ACORN, the Alinskyite grassroots political organization that grew out of George Wiley's National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO). 

[CD]

And more evidence, this time in New Hampshire: http://patriotupdate.com/18288/no-voting-id-required-in-new-hampshire

[NCVol]

"Just one more thing, you know FAR more about Saul Alinski than I do - never heard of the guy till Glenn Beck started going off on him.  It's made up fantasy that us liberals have even heard of his book till you guys fabricated this straw man. " - NCVol

Right. Is Hillary Clinton a liberal? She wrote a 92 page thesis about a straw man, someone she never heard of?

OK, I should have said the vast majority of liberals. And what have you shown? 

Here is a Dick Armey/Freedom Works minion on Alinsky. 

“I put together a PowerPoint on grass-roots organizing and the favorite part for a lot of these organizers was how this leftist community organizer Saul Alinsky was so effective and how we can use his tactics against the left,” said FreedomWorks’ top organizer, Brendan Steinhauser.

“You become a better organizer when you understand that there is nothing new under the sun,” Steinhauser said of his appreciation of Alinsky. “All the pitfalls, the problems, the disputes — this is the way human beings are. Politics is a human science and this guy understood that. He was practical. He understood how to get competing factions and interests and individuals to get in the same room and form what he called a ‘peoples’ organization’ and to move in the same direction to take on city hall.”

Wow, that's RADICAL!!!!  SCARRYY too!!! OH MY GOSH SAUL ALINSKY!!! 

Sheesh, it's like you guys scream "Saul Alinsky" and it is supposed to end some argument somehow.  I don't get it.  It's almost as funny as screaming "HITLER!!!" like Glenn Beck did with video of the Third Reich in the background. 

I'll pull more examples of conservatives using Alinsky's methods tomorrow. 

[NCVol]

And more evidence, this time in New Hampshire: http://patriotupdate.com/18288/no-voting-id-required-in-new-hampshire

Well you're right, we are watching a criminal act in those videos.  It's called voter fraud when you request a vote in a dead person's name, and they committed a crime.  And your point is what?  If you're willing to commit a crime, you can commit a crime?  Well that IS a shock!  

How has the country conducted elections for 200 years without voter picture IDs?  Heck, I drove for YEARS with a drivers license without a picture.  Think of all the fraudulent voting I could have done!!  And all I had to do was risk jail time to cast ONE vote for the 'right' candidate.  Can't figure out why I didn't do a LOT of that before picture IDs were required to vote.  Well, there's the crime thing, but other than it being a crime with almost no sure upside and lots and lots and LOTS of potential downside, I can't think of a reason... 

And the point still is you're working on the assumption that NO ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT ACTUAL VOTER FRAUD IS A PROBLEM means it's proof that it's  a problem.  Same as lack of any evidence Mitch Daniels has sex with his dog is proof that it's a problem, since it's so hard to prove, so it's clearly a problem, man on dog sex...  

Because what you can't show is ANY EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that dead people voting is more than a trivial issue.  Well, you can't show it's an issue at all, because in real life it's unheard of for people to risk being convicted of a crime by showing up at a polling place and actually attempt to vote on behalf of a dead person.  What you can't even suggest is that it's more than a trivial problem because I doubt if you can find one example anywhere of it happening, at least in our lifetimes.