Today is Ash Wednsday Lent is here

[plumbervol]

"do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,"

[roustabout]

What do think PV,

Do you think there is biblical merit to lent?

Do people who participate really understand?

[plumbervol]

Lent is supposedly based on The forty days Jesus spent in the desert. Many scholars believe the 40 days in the desert are symbolic that Jesus was the new Moses and the new Elijah. Moses spent forty days on Mount Sinai with God and fasted, Elijah spent forty days and nights walking to Mount Horeb. Noah endured 40 days of rain during the great flood and the Hebrew people wandered forty years traveling to the Promised Land and Jonah in his prophecy of judgment gave the city of Nineveh forty days in which to repent. Ascension Day is celebrated 40 days after Easter based on the Acts...

40  seems to have a a special meaning to the Israelites.

Also during Lent  the church  increases its prayer for the dead, not only reminding the believer of their own mortality, and thus increasing the spirit of penitence, but also to remind him of his Christian obligation of charity in praying for the departed. A number of Saturdays during  Lent are Saturdays of the Dead, with many of the hymns of the Daily Office and at the Divine Liturgy dedicated to remembrance of the departed.

This tradition was started in the Catacombs of Rome during the Great Perscecution and the early Martyrs are remembered. Origanlly the Fathers of the Old testament were celebrated on the First Sunday of Lent(Moses, Aaron, and Samuel) Prayer for the dead appears in the Pharisaic book of Maccabees Judas Maccabeus offers a sacrifice as a propitiatory sin-offering and a memorial thank-offering. These prayers and sacrifices were intended to improve the standing of the dead during the resurrection.

Also Lent is based on the Jewish Mourning ritual of Shiva. 7 days of Mourning, 30 days of Shiva.  This reaches back to old Jewish cutoms...Once the coffin is closed, the chevra then asks for forgiveness from the deceased for anything that they may have done to offend them or not show proper respect during the taharah. It is traditional to recite Psalms during this time.
 

[roustabout]

I understand and am aware of the history.

I'm asking you. Is what is known as "Lent" today, biblical? When people talk about giving up Ice Cream, and potato chips, do you really think they understand the "sacrifice."

[plumbervol]

I see nothing wrong with giving up Ice Cream and potato chips as a gesture to purify your soul and bring God into your life. The history of Lent shows a correlation between tough times and devout observation. The Early Church and Persecution, The Middle Age's the Plague etc. Immaculate Conception 12 noon Ash Wed service is packed and the Economy sucks. It has to beat the hell out of some crazy monk self flagellating or folks having themselves nailed to a cross.

[roustabout]

I have no problem with the tradition of Lent, but I have a problem with the tradition of Lent. (think deep now)

The Bible warns about the traditions of men.

As Christ said, it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out. What comes out is a product of the heart. And that is really what Christ was/is concerned with. The Pharisees had it Lented up to nth degree, but their hearts weren't right. They had traditions and religion down to a science.

Fasting, sacrifice, all these things are not wrong. It is the heart of a person that makes the difference.
I find it hard to believe that someone giving up Ice Cream (not a necessity at all) really has grasped the sacrifice of Christ, or has really pondered in their heart the whole concept.

When I ask, "what can I give up for Lent?" I then have to ask, "what can I give up for Lent?"  The words are the same but hear me out. The 1st is motivated by self. The 2nd is asking what can I possibly give up, that would compare to what Christ gave up for me.

Is the heart seeking oneness with God, or is it a tradition of men, and the result I'm most interested in is that I might actually shed a few pounds? What is the HEART of the matter.

The extreme nature of monks whipping themselves is no different. They also mock the cross. They think they can somehow improve themselves by deeds of the flesh. They mock the grace of God, by deeds they think will elevate them in the eyes of God. It's not two different things, the Ice Cream and the whips. Just a different end of the same candle. Anyone who thinks they can whip themselves into favor with God, has missed the point of the cross altogether.

Lord Jesus, wake us up. Shake up our hearts Lord. Forgive us Lord that we would reduce your sacrifice to trivial things.

[plumbervol]

 " take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.


so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

[roustabout]

Those scriptures drive home another area of what we currently know as Lent.

You do hear a lot of people talk about what they are "giving up" for Lent. They like to talk about it, don't they.

" take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

Again Jesus gets right back to the crux of the matter. HEART. The scripture doesn't say, "don't perform righteous deeds where people can see." It says don't perform them "IN ORDER" that others may see them. That's a heart matter.

Jesus is recorded praying in many different places (mountains, gardens, in rooms w/others) where no rooms were available. So, the message was not pray only in a private room. But that prayers are a matter of the HEART, and not to show everyone how spiritual you are.

In Acts 1:24 Peter referred to God as the "Kardiagnostes." Most English translations don't do this word justice. Most say, "who knows the hearts of men." The literal interpretation is, "the HEART KNOWER." 

Paul wrote, "That I may know (ginosko:deep intamacy) him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death." Phil 3:10
Does that sound like today's "Lent" to you?

With deep sarcasm:
 Lord I am giving up Ice Cream, that I may KNOW you, and the power of your resurrection, and the fellowship of your sufferings, (I mean come on Lord, no Rocky Road for 40 days. It's as if I'm hangin on that cross with you) being made comformable to these blue jeans, I mean death.

Come on PV. This is the Lord and Savior who spilled out His life. Give up religion and get Jesus.

[TnBigAl]

RA, i read through this thread last night & well, just had to think about it for a while.
Take this for what it's worth but,
My friend, will you ever change your thinking just a little bit?
When anyone is so all fired cocksure of the truth, it probably means one is drifting away from it.
Take a heads up and look around, being a diverse unique human being is part of what we are, and when you can't realize the other point of view you become, i believe a type of island & you can start to scare people.
Me thinks you've been on the island too long.

Plumber gave you a nice description of what lent means for Catholics and yet you fight & claw tooth & nail NOT to see the other side!
If you indeed know Jesus so well through the Bible, if Jesus was talking to you on your perception of things today, what would he say to you?
He was very patient with sinners but really brought out His guns when he confounded the supposedly righteous.
So much we face in this life brother is mystery, flat out beautiful mystery. We are not built to figure it all out, but to keep on living life, trying as best we can to love & love well,
And accept the graces given us to by God which adds to a what can be a lively faith.
Your perception of many things finally starts to scare me, and i say this to you because your a smart stand up guy i feel! But man o man, your a tough nut!
See if you can wait a few days before you answer this with the same old half cocked, got it figured out response that you usually do.
Lighten up, quit thinking so hard & just let God love ya and you may be surprised as to how the world may look then.

[roustabout]

1st Catholics aren't the only ones who celebrate lent.

I am already aware of what Lent is and its history.

I am talking about the heart of men.
I'm talking about the same thing our Lord and Savior rebuked the Pharisees for. "These people honor me with their lips, but their HEARTS are far from me."

TBA, can you demonstrate that I am being biblically unfaithful? Jesus made people uncomfortable. Jesus scared the religious authority did He not.

If you are not bothered by people trivializing the death of the Lord, then perhaps your worries are misplaced.

just let God love ya and you may be surprised as to how the world may look then.

Friendship with the world is enmity with God. And, Do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world.

TBA, the world looks lost. I have great hope. It's just not misplaced.

“Wherefore if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances, (touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh” (Col. 2:20-23).

http://www.thercg.org/articles/ttmol.html

 

[Dementia_Madness]

Hello from Los Alamos!!!!

Okay I had to point out a few things, since this seems like the opportunity to criticise, I guess the door is open and I feel the need to point out a few things.

First TBA

My friend, will you ever change your thinking just a little bit?
When anyone is so all fired cocksure of the truth, it probably means one is drifting away from it.

Is it wise to question someone "beliefs" as a defense of questioning them about questioning others beliefs?

I have to say I cannot agree with you less, or disagree with you more. I think it is quite possible for people to be "cocksure" of the truth. Why do i think this? Why because the BIBLE tells me we can. Just what can we be sure of? Why just that book itself, "THE BIBLE." Now again, we will probably hear arguments of translations and verses changed taken out or added. Well, if we educate ourself on the HISTORY of the BIBLE, what was changed where and why, we can get a pretty good ideal of what was changed by who when and why, and just what it adds or take away from the text. Take the Bible used by the Jehovah's Witnesses....There are a few verses changed to take away the deity of Christ, this is the usual tactics of Cults of personality, who generally thrive on SELF-WORKS to ensure salvation, rather than the sovereign power and will and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God himself, to save us.

We can be sure of what is in the Bible, and our faith, Jesus, and the Apostles tell us this again and again. Remember God said to TEST our faith, and to use the SCRIPTURE to not only gain knowledge and guide us, but also as proof of what we believe and to correct others whose faith is misguided.

Take a heads up and look around, being a diverse unique human being is part of what we are, and when you can't realize the other point of view you become, i believe a type of island & you can start to scare people.

It's fine to know your surroundings and take in as much as you can about others opinions and views. I know roust "realizes" others views, but that does not mean he has to agree, nor do they with him, or you with me. Christ said that we should be apart from the world, to not be of the world, in fact to try and make ourselves an ISLAND of Godliness and FAITH in a sea of ungodliness and doubt. Paul and Christ said our work was in the world we are to be in it, but not of it. What you suggest is in fact a direct contradiction to Jesus' teachings, and in my opinion, "take it for what it is worth" not where anyone professing faith in Christ should be arguing any point from.

Me thinks you've been on the island too long.

I think we need to find the island that is Christ, the ROCK, and put our house on that foundation, that is unless we want our homes to be built upon the sands of the world, "diverse" and ever changing, and being driven by the winds and the seas, where is there security, and where is there truth?

Plumber gave you a nice description of what lent means for Catholics and yet you fight & claw tooth & nail NOT to see the other side!

This is a forum for debate, not a concensus moratorium....the purpose is to express and agree or disagree where we will, if there is fighting, or struggle, it is only with those who do not want others views to be placed beside their own to be considered. Seeing is not believing, understanding is not accepting, knowing is not submission, The devil KNOWS Christ is God, but he does not bow down to him of his own free will.

If you indeed know Jesus so well through the Bible, if Jesus was talking to you on your perception of things today, what would he say to you?
He was very patient with sinners but really brought out His guns when he confounded the supposedly righteous.
So much we face in this life brother is mystery, flat out beautiful mystery. We are not built to figure it all out, but to keep on living life, trying as best we can to love & love well, And accept the graces given us to by God which adds to a what can be a lively faith.

Again, perhaps a personal message questioning what "others" believe is not the best way to question their questioning of other beliefs. I agree with some of what you said here, the parts that are true, not opinion. perhaps you should "see" what Roust is actaully saying, and offer that same grace to him you ask him to show?

Lighten up, quit thinking so hard & just let God love ya and you may be surprised as to how the world may look then.

Christians, I tell you, do not soften your view of scripture in order to become MORE LIKE THE WORLD, HARDEN YOURSELF, AND SHARPEN YOURSELF WITH THE WORD, ONLY THEN WILL YOU PROTECT YOURSELF FROM THE TRAPS AND SNARES OF YOUR WORLDY FLAWED SELF. Think about what you believe in, STUDY the word, KNOW your faith and don't just accept that what you believe is true, without having a foundation of SCRIPTURE and FAITH in that word to stand upon.

A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience

TBA I hope you can take my critique at least as well as yours of roust was intended.

May God bless you and may you walk in the word.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

[roustabout]

Man I miss you Mondo. Well said.

The real discovery of truth is when one is willing to lay down their opinion and surrendertheir life to the guidance of Christ. And that guidance comes through a guide book and a person. And it is the written word that is the inspiration and revelation of God, and His Holy Spirit.

Christ showed no indication that he came to unite mankind under any other notion except death of one's self. That is why the Prince of Peace said he came to bring a sword. There is never any indication of a "your OK, I'm OK," theology.

Lent is just another in a long line of traditions of men. The original intent may have been pure, but the product today is corrupt. The fact that people can even claim to comprehend the CROSS, and then reduce it to things like beer, and ice cream proves that. 

Is it no wonder Jesus warned of "traditions." I mean has the church just white washed that out of the bible. Does Jesus' warning to the Pharisees not still have application today? Lord help us.