Today is Ash Wednsday Lent is here

[TnBigAl]

Alright Then! It's ON!

Darth, Since i've popped in and out of here a few times, this is the first that i've seen hide nor hair of you & you basically did your best to rip me a new one.
Neither you or RA were open to anything i've said.
Fellas, may i ask where you guys are in your prayer life?

I say this because who exactly are YOU to argue with the tradition of a church that was founded by Christ upon the rock who was illustrated by Peter?
You talk as if the Universal Church is not a part of or for you!
You want to discount the lives of the Saints who make up the VAST majority of what is the tradition of the church because it is what they as men & women have learned and lived of the love of Christ & how this love is transformed by the Holy Spirit age after age.
The very Bible you refer to was put together by the Universal Church & somewhat dismantled during the reformation & the beginnings of Protestantism.
The Dogma & Catechism of the Catholic Church comes from living out what God has told us in the Bible and is NOT a hinderance to mankind but spititual insights into those deep & loving words that Jesus Christ said to us as He emulated His Father.

With every person i meet i see a unique person created by God who has much to offer the world each in their own gifted way. I do not care per say what is their "brand" of religion & i am not dismayed to engage with those who don't believe in God or at this time don't seem to care one way or another. They are alive and on the journey whether they know it or not and their time WILL come by God to know Him & accept the way, truth & life offered them, or not & choose death & darkness. The timing is up to God & i just pray that if the Lord wants to use me in any way He deems, that through grace i step up to the plate & do His will.
Always!
Being on an island is my way of saying one is losing touch with His fellow man. This is where we find God face to face. Both you guys know we've had meetings where we could have met, but you choose to remain behind the veil, why?

In my prayer life and daily walk with our Lord I seek always to listen to Him via His most Holy Spirit and walk through the gardens during the cool breeze of the day. Listen to Him! The Father commanded us!
How much listening do you guys do before you go popping off your standard lines of tripe?
Everytime you tell someone who is not Christian that they HAVE to do something or understand something in a spcific way for them to be saved you lose them, you scare them and you alienate them. People have to know you care before you preach to them what they should know.

Peace Brothers.

[roustabout]

I say this because who exactly are YOU to argue with the tradition of a church

You know, the Pharisees probably said the same thing to Jesus. "Who is this Christ who dines with tax collectors. Saying, that He is the, Word. And saying that we are blind because of our TRADITIONS. Does he have no respect for the church, the heritage, the lineage."

Mondo and I both have great respect for the Christian lineage, and heroes of the faith such as Tertullian, Clement, Martyr, Augustine. But we don't make the mistake of assuming that the buildings over in Italy and the hierarchy that resides inside is THE CHURCH because someone has played connect the dots over the centuries.

You make great assumptions that the institution called the RCC is THE CHURCH. The Church is not some institution. It is the BODY of CHRIST, not some man made hierarchy carried over from pagan practices. It doesn't matter how old it is.  The true church has always been a remnant. The Pharisees were Abraham's seed. They had as much claim as anyone could possibly have. But their hearts were cold. The bible as much says that it was taken away from them and given to the Gentiles. Why? Heart.

In my prayer life and daily walk with our Lord I seek always to listen to Him via His most Holy Spirit

And how does the Spirit do that? Through the Word. The Holy Spirit is the person through whom the WORD comes to life and works effectively in the believer. If the Word has no final authority, then the believer can easily be led astray. By feelings, traditions, or whatever. Just as easily as you try to lower the written word by questioning the protestant movement, I can give you a good history lesson on the absolute corruption of the RCC in the dark ages, and how the word was most endangered through all kinds of wickedness. But even I can see how the hand of God prevailed and preserved the written Word. Always funny to me, how the ones who claimed to be "responsible" for the bible, somehow use that argument to reduce its authority. That is a sad thing.

The very Bible you refer to was put together by the Universal Church & somewhat dismantled during the reformation & the beginnings of Protestantism.

The Word was preserved by the hand of God. The books were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Again, to try and reduce the authority of the written Word is a terrible thing to do. And then to elevate traditions to the same or higher level is a tired argument that is just RCC speak that's been drilled into your head. I think if you really take a look at that line of thought, the Spirit within you will NOT swallow it.


I have no doubt that much of what is the catechism of the RCC was birthed out of pure hearts for the Lord. But so was the pharisee tradition. When the traditions move people away from the true HEART, then the traditions have failed. I also know historically that many of the so called traditions are practices carried over when Constantine declared Rome Christian. That is why Pagan terms like Easter have found there way into the Christian vocabulary and why Christmas is dated with events on the pagan calender. The use of prayer beads, etc.

 
At the end of the day all these arguments boil down to one thing. Scriptural authority. Either 2 Tim 3:16 is correct, or it is not. There will never be harmony within the body of Christ as long as there is division in this area. I've been through this over and over again. I'm saddened to see you resorting to some of the arguments you've decided to hedge your position on.

The Gospel will prevail in spite of corrupt men, corrupt Popes, inquisitions, corrupt preachers who sell the gospel as some self-help, get rich quick program.

[Dementia_Madness]

Is it ON? If so what is "it" and what is it "on?"

Perhaps now is a good time for us to get an understanding of just what we are arguing for and against here.

Just to clarify my points and where I am coming from. You can tell me point by point just where my logic fails and I am wrong.

 It is my belief that

1. It is not wise to point out how wrong it is to question others beliefs, by questioning others beliefs.
2. One can be sure of what they "know,"  if that knowledge is verified and tested by SCRIPTURE.
3. It is wise to take in your surroundings and try to grasp an understanding of what those around you believe, but you do not have to simply accept it or agree with it.
4. Understanding the ways of the world does not mean you have to partake of those ways, or sins. In fact it is wise to not let yourself be tempted by those things to begin with.
5. It is wiser to argue from the same side as Christ and the Apostles than to argue ANYTHING against them.
6. WE must be in the world but not OF it.
7.Seeing is not believing, understanding is not accepting, knowing is not submission, The devil KNOWS Christ is God, but he does not bow down to him of his own free will.
8. Again, It is not wise to point out how wrong it is to question others beliefs, by questioning others beliefs.
9. Christian's should not soften their view of God's HOLY word in order to be more like or liked by the UNHOLY UNGODLY WORLD.
10. Christians should study the word and gain a knowledge of it and from it in order to be able to KNOW their FAITH is aligned with God's will.
11. In the end it comes down to one thing.... "L." and I am not talking about where British people go if they are not saved. Either you defend the WORD or you defend the WOR"L"D, and thereby yourself by which ever one you place your faith in.

I'll stick with the former...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.


Now based upon your arguments this is what you believe


1. Roust needs to change his thinking.  ( Thought police? You need to change your thinking. Just kidding you are free to think as you wish, and it's no problem to me, I will simply think how I think and let our thoughts stand side by side. You can be wrong all you want.)
2. When someone is sure of the truth it means they are actually not. ( I wonder just how sure you are of that little nugget of fact.)
3. You shouldn't hold to hard to what you believe if there are other beliefs out there you could and should believe especially if they are more diverse and unique. (Just because there are other stories does not mean they are true, or equally as valid as the TRUTH of Christ and his WORD we hold faith in. The devil has been making stuff up as long as there have been lies.)
4. You shouldn't hold onto any strong beliefs for to long a time. ( The length of time one holds onto TRUTH is immaterial, One day the WORD will be held in eternity as truth, and man's traditions and stories will be long ago washed away.)
5. Roust doesn't not know Jesus, through the BIBLE, but he can understand Jesus if he makes him up from his own imaginations and how the WORLD tells us Jesus SHOULD be. (If we do not learn about Jesus from scripture where do we learn about him from, the robes wrapped around an old man dipped in Gold of the earth, or man made buildings that will all be dust one day?)
6. Christ defended the sinners and shot down the righteous. (This is in fact false, he defended the sinners who repented and accepted his WORD, and shot down the sinners who measured their own righteousness by THEIR and the WORLDS standards, rather than God's. In other words he defended the truly righteous and shot down the TRUE unrepentant SINNERS.)
7. Much of life is a mystery, we were not made to be able to understand it all, but as long as we live and love and try it will be okay. ( Actually we can figure it all out, The Bible tells us all we need to know. WE are sinners, We deserve to die and go to hell, God saved us, through his grace, his mercy, through CHRIST ALONE. If we accept salvation, REPENT and BELIEVE in Christ, have FAITH, we are saved.)
8. Roust's faith in God and his unbending belief in the WORD OF GOD scares you. ( Good the world should be scared of the WORD afterall it is the WORD that Condemns the WORLD not Roust or even I. If you are of the WORLD and not of the WORD be scared because one day you will either be justified by one and condemned by the other.)
9. People should be light hearted and not think long and hard about what could be the most important thing in all existence, not the color of a shirt, or strawberry or banana, but perhaps the final destination of their eternal soul. (very wise)
10. doing number 9 just might make you love the world even more. ( I couldn't agree with you more, I love the world but not because of  the world itself or because of us, I love what GOD is in the world and his grace through us, it is only GOD that is worthy of LOVE and only the grace of God in us that makes us lovable to each other)

I had typed out the points you made to Me and Roust and responded, but I decided that it was not necessary I think this is enough for you to absorb and respond to at this time.

So in a nut shell, you are arguing FOR THE WORLD and TRADITIONS over scripture, Roust and I are arguing for the WORD and What is written over what the world has to offer.

The WORD or the WORLD, you will either be justified by one or condemned by the other, which one you choose might just mean 'eaven or 'ell.

[TnBigAl]

OK, yes, i see where you're coming from but we seem to end up somewhere near the OK Corral anyway. I then feel like i'm looking at a double barreled shotgun and holding a pea shooter. Why is this? And fellas, do you think i'm the only one that feels that way?
But to me this is the good news, if we 're on the earth, a sort of "tombstone" scenario if you will, which one of us is Doc Holiday & which Johnny Ringo? In this scene there is only one other character (all others have chosen sides) & he is running around like a nut in the middle of the action begging, "don't shoot, don't shoot! He is pitiful because he is not in the fight & told then to get out of the way. Go stand with the women & children somewhere. He was neither hot, nor cold. Spewed out of the action.
We're in it tooth & nail but the idea is not to gring our teeth & not to nail each other on a cross of our making. Jesus Christ took it on the cheek and then gave us is whole body, to be a part of His most precious body. To become one with God and HIM at our head.
So we stay in the action, learn & discern & pray like wildmen for each other & do the best we can with the gifts given us.
And the gift of life is so most precious!

In regards to scripture, i believe you guys would agree that we are sort of caught in a crossfire in that as the books of the OT and the the Gospels & Epistles of the NT have been chosen for us, much is still heatedly debated as to which of them all where true and most advantageous to the salvation of man & truly the will of God, the very Word come to us in print. Then take into account translations which can and have been muddled up through the ages. So we forge on, do the best we can and rely on God to help us each & together sort it all out. We as humans and sure mess things up but so we rely on the mercy of God and in turn the Mercy of each other.

Now, let me quote briefly from the book; "Cononicity" by James Turro & R. Brown;

"Viewed objectively, thge canon of Scripture stands as a body of literature endowed with inner cohesion. Undoubtedly this cohesion came about because these books were being used by a community guided by the the Holy Spirit. They nourished the prayer life of the group, called forth reflection and provided rule for life. Books not conforming to this initial cohesion fall, by that very fact, outside the pale of the canon. The faculty for judging such conformity or nonconformity resides in the church. Acknowledgement from any other quarter would be what Zwingli feared, namely, a human seal of approval set upon the work of God. In part it was well this consideration that prompted Augustine's well know observation, "I would not believe in the Gospel did not the authority of the Catholic Church move me to do this". "

Fellas, Catholic as you know means Universal Church. Under Jesus Christ as the head we fall under his widespread arms on the cross as we work together through this gift called life. Be it whatever faction of Christianity we strive under.
John Paul the II worked his hardest for unity and it was his desire we would all come together in the year 2000. We obviously we still have a bit of work to do!
But this is what WE are doing right here.
God Bless Ya'll!
Alan Ross

[roustabout]

when Augustine uses the term Catholic, can you say with certainty that he is referring to what you know today as the RCC? The term catholic as you said simply means universal. No question that God spoke these words through men, and used men to assemble the canon. No question that the "church" is not an institution, or some buildings in Italy occupied by a hierarchy that in no way reflects the early apostolic roots of the faith. And that's my beef. There are those, many here at SPS, who seem to look down their nose with a sense of entitlement because they are RC. And seem to think that they can disregard the authority of scripture because if it wasn't for the good ole RCC, we poor protestants wouldn't have a bible, cause God just couldn't pull it off on His own. Isn't God lucky to have us.

The argument is scriptural authority, vs. church worship. Sticking the name "catholic" on something doesn't qualify it, as the "church." The church is the body of Christ. True believers set apart and sanctified.   

Then take into account translations which can and have been muddled up through the ages.

We have a great library of ancient text in the original language to refer to. the scholarship available is 2nd to none. A translation is just that. It is the best attempt to communicate from the original to a different language. And no question there are differences from language to language. That is not the ultimate issue here. That is just further rhetoric to diminish scriptural authority.

the bible will always be debated. But simply because something is heatedly debated does not give merit to the debate itself. The canon has been well established 1,700 years or more. Unlike the RCC catechism.

Surrendering all means all. Even our religiosity.

Let me add that unity is only valid if it unites us IN Christ. I have no desire to see harmony among the factions if that means watering down the Gospel to do it. Christ is THE WAY. Is that not why the Prince of Peace said he came to bring a sword that will divide brother against brother. True unity can only be found in complete and total peace with God. Not people getting together and compromising their own puny beliefs and religion, just so we can all get along. The fruit of the spirit does not include compromise. We must be loving, patient, peaceful, kind, etc. even while the stones are flying at our heads. Peace with God does not mean peace for the world. In fact Christ and the apostles admonish us to know the difference. "The world will hate you." There will be wolves among the sheep. So if Christ warns that there will be tares among the wheat, and wolves among the sheep, just where is it they will be. WITHIN THE CHURCH. And if we are not rooted firmly in the Word and rightly dividing the Word of truth, we will be like a wave in the wind, subject to false teachings.

Ultimately my conflict with you is the position you place the Word, and the position you place the institution of the RCC. Although at times you highly esteem the scriptures, your criticism's, no matter how minute, do in fact create a gaping chasm between us. You ever so subtly cast a shadhow of doubt on God's Word, and lift the RCC to a position that I feel is unmerited.

[plumbervol]

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/mar/28/bye-2-txtng/

This girl gave up Text Messaging for Lent, is that tough enough?

I can see somebody starting a spiritual journey just by taking these small steps, be it Ice Cream or Texting.

[roustabout]

"If you love me, you will OBEY my commands."