Constitutionalists Beware...

[NCVol]

There is a very fine line between "slaves" etc and citizens of this country enjoying the benefits of a wealthy society, with many of those benefits provided to citizens without regard to wealth or income.  Personally, I don't find the "dependency" of having mom on Medicare to be akin to slavery.  It's a good example of a community coming together to fulfill the needs of seniors to get reliable health care in their old age. 

There are lots of things I don't want government to provide, like my housing, or my car, or making clothes, and shoes and washing machines, etc.  But what government should provide is what some call the commons, and that's really the distinction between liberals and conservatives.  Most of us agree on roads and utilities and the military and some environmental laws, public education, and some others.  I'd consider life saving medical care the "commons" and believe government should provide it or guarantee it, and if they do either, which most people agree on, then all we are going to argue about is how is the most efficient way for that to happen.  For healthcare, the evidence is our system costs twice as much as other systems, for very little benefit, if any, and maybe the most efficient way to provide this essential is through a single payer, like Medicare.

But if you don't believe in Medicare, for example, you'll be in a tiny minority.  There may be a movement that wants that kind of thing abolished, but I think Eisenhower said it about right

Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

[LTC]

Sounds like the beginning of OCP and robocop to me...........I'll bet grey was hoping OCP beat ole robo!

[Jeremy Roenick]

Don't forget NC...

What this DOJ report is saying is that people fed up with big government or disenfranchised with big government are a homeland security threat. Doesn't that concern you just a bit?  For someone who said that the NSA and CIA did Cheney's dirty work for the preceding 8 years, I would think that this would raise your ire too?

And as far as entitlements go, I'll match you quote for quote...

Alexander Tytler - "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

In his cycles or steps of democracy...
From bondage to spiritual faith
From spiritual faith to great courage
From courage to liberty
From liberty to abundance
From abundance to complacency
From complacency to apathy
From apathy to dependence
From dependence back into bondage

We are in that apathy to dependence stage right now.  So just when do the entitlements stop?  When the Empire is broke?  We're fast approaching that point.  The Elites have exactly what they want right now "Slaves".  A vast majority of America that is indifferent to politics, cares more about American Idol, and is standing there with contempt with their hand out waiting on what's "theirs".

[NCVol]

First of all, the huge document was a list of terms.  Second, liberals also had plenty of groups represented, as did Muslims, black helicopters had an entry, the bilderbergers, and there were all kinds of various tax scheme terms listed. 

And they're not saying that if you're fed up with Big Gubment that you're a threat.  You might be a threat if you're in a militia, and you spout anti-government end times rhetoric, or threaten to bring blood to the streets, and brag about your arsenal, but I really don't think that the feds are tracking visitors to Ronpaul.gov or whatever his website is or tracking folks who participate in his money bombs.  They have better things to do, like infiltrate muslim domestic terrorist! organizations and domestic animal rights terrorist organizations, who as I mentioned had several entries on that document.

If you present evidence that the FBI is getting national security letters to check the bank accounts of folks at the Glenn Beckorama over the weekend, then I'll join you in getting upset about the abuse of our civil liberties.  If they start arresting white rednecks and holding them without charge, trial, or counsel, I'll protest with you.  But the rhetoric coming from some right wing crazies is worrisome, the secret service is tracking at last count an unprecedented level of death threats against the president, these crazies have flown a plane into an IRS building, a Beck disciple was caught with weapons and plans to assassinate folks in some foundation OMG mentioned the other day, and they're being whipped into a frenzy.  I HOPE the feds are tracking some of these groups, just like I assume you hope they're tracking Mooossleeem extremists who, as you're aware, haven't attacked anyone here in about a decade, but we want an eye kept on the extremists, right? 

It's a nice quote, but it's actually not real.  No one quite knows where it came from.  And it wasn't that I can find a quote, the purpose was to demonstrate that things haven't changed.  If Congress eliminates Medicare, the party that does it WILL disappear from history.  Bet on it, which is why the GOP got such traction out of scaremongering the seniors with the death panel bullshiate.  It's nice to dream, but it ain't gonna happen. 

Or maybe it will happen right around the time we end the Fed, go back a gold currency, close all our overseas bases, and disband our standing army.  As you know, the founders never intended for us to have this type of military....  We were supposed to have militias, like some of the European soshulist countries. 

[Jeremy Roenick]

If Congress eliminates Medicare, the party that does it WILL disappear from history.  Bet on it, which is why the GOP got such traction out of scaremongering the seniors with the death panel bullshiate.  It's nice to dream, but it ain't gonna happen. 

And in what way is that worse than America disappearing?  This cannot be sustained.  We can promise the moon until the cows come home, but until we take our medicine and stop the madness, we will go broke.

I know what you're saying about the quote.  In part it is correctly attributed to Alexander Tytler.  The basic premise of what is said there is essentially what Tytler said.  Once the masses discover they can reward themselves from the treasury, the democracy has circled the bowl. 

[NCVol]

What's missing when people talk about, among other things, eliminating Medicare, or SS, is what comes next.  What do we do to insure old people who are just terrible customers for a for profit insurance company.  If you are 70, you're probably taking a half dozen drugs, have a chronic condition like heart disease or diabetes, have cancer, will get cancer, will get dementia, will have a heart attack, have a failing liver or kidney, etc. and insurers simply do not want to and will NOT take that risk without a gubment mandate or huge subsidies to pay off the amount that they simply cannot charge the huge numbers of seniors who are POOR. 

Right now the insurers have excellent systems to pick the good risks, price them competitively, identify the customers who are likely to get sick, and either price them out of coverage on the front end or kick them off on the back end when they get sick.  That's how they maximize profits.  Collect premiums, don't pay out benefits.  That's their model, and it means that sick people are terrible risks and they want no part of them.  How do you fix that incentive?

That's what's missing from the Tea Party movement.  OK, we don't like entitlements.  Fine.  Explain to me how seniors secure health insurance and get medical care when the private market wants no part of them. 

You've seen the savings for the baby boomers.  HUGE numbers have none, their house values have collapsed, so if we eliminate or slash benefits, what do these people do?  Work as greeters at Walmart until they're too feeble to walk?  Seriously. 

I think you might support slashing the military.  That would fund SS and Medicare, with ease.

Bottom line is I'll take the Tea parties seriously when they start talking about the CEO class, offshoring, the obscene amounts we spend overseas, they take on oil and gas subsidies, the banking subsidies, the ag subsidies that almost all go to behemoth public companies, etc.  But what I hear is outrage that seniors will get SS and Medicare, that we have Medicaid to cover lazy non-workers, that the HCR provides coverage to poor folks, etc.  It's all about the terrible effects of benefits flowing DOWN, and is completely and utterly silent about the subsidies flowing to the CEO class, the aristocrats as you call them. 

And no wonder.  The plutocrats are FUNDING the movement.  Why would they encourage people to think about GS and the fact them and a handful of other banks control more assets than most countries, or that the Fortune 500 does best when wages paid to U.S. workers go to zero with offshoring or are kept low by a flood of illegal labor, a persistent large rate of unemployment, a working class that is permanently in a state of fear for their jobs and their livelihood, and unions continue to decline. 

The bottom line is what is being advocated by the Tea Party movement pleases people like the Koch brothers immensely.  It's what they've been fighting for for decades.  You can't ignore that fact and pretend that well, this part is "people" and this other part funded by the billionaire class is illegitimate.  They are the same movement.  Glenn Beck is the man for the Tea partiers, and he's funded by advertising and hosted by Fox and the country's largest media companies on radio. 

[Jeremy Roenick]

That's what's missing from the Tea Party movement.  OK, we don't like entitlements.  Fine.  Explain to me how seniors secure health insurance and get medical care when the private market wants no part of them.

You've seen the savings for the baby boomers.  HUGE numbers have none, their house values have collapsed, so if we eliminate or slash benefits, what do these people do?  Work as greeters at Walmart until they're too feeble to walk?  Seriously.

I don't think anyone from the strict Constitutionalists side of the aisle is advocating the elimination of either of those programs.  People have grown up knowing and planning that those safety nets would be there.  What we need to do is stop the expansion of entitlement programs, and that's what's happening right now under the veil of economic crisis.  How many of these new entitlements will end when things return to normal?  "0".

As for the tea party movement, I think you need to take a long hard look a the "movement" and the self-appointed politicians (i.e. Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, etc.) that have co-opted the movement.  I think there's a vast difference there.  The Republican establishment saw this grassroots movement spring up with a thunder clap, and they've tried to jump in the driver's seat from the beginning in order to ride the momentum to 2010 election success.  Don't confuse the politician's views with the movement's platform.

The Tea Party would like to do such items that would infuriate the globalists such as: Ban the IRS, repeal the income tax, Audit the Fed, some would endorse the Fair Tax, push for term limits on Congress, protect free speech, limit executive powers, protect 2nd amendment rights, etc.

Glen Beck and FOX News are NOT the Tea Party, but they're trying to steer it and keep the agenda within the corporate masters and globalists' goals.  I only wish more conservatives would wake up to the fact that Beck is a CORPORATE media mouth piece and NOT some benevolent Conservative who "cries" for his nation:

Glenn Beck - The Crying Game

Glenn Beck's Fake Crying Photoshoot

[NCVol]

Glen Beck and FOX News are NOT the Tea Party, but they're trying to steer it and keep the agenda within the corporate masters and globalists' goals.  I only wish more conservatives would wake up to the fact that Beck is a CORPORATE media mouth piece and NOT some benevolent Conservative who "cries" for his nation:

The problem is they ARE.  The polls consistently show similar results to this poll.  These are the activists, people who have attended rallies, etc.  About 20% of Tea Party supporters, less than 4% of Americans. 


In case the picture doesn't come through:

Get political news from Fox - 77%
Like Beck - 77%
Palin - 75%
Favorable opinion of GOP: 44%

I just don't see how you separate the tea partiers from the larger GOP movement and the huge money behind it. 

That last is why the propaganda machine is behind the movement.  These people don't like the GOP, but they hate the democrats, hate Obama (96%), and there's no one else for them to vote for. 

And let's take a few of those topics.

Ban the IRS:  IRS is just a name.  We have to collect taxes to run the wealthiest country on the planet.  It could be the "Real American Fair Tax Service" but it will be the same as the IRS, with the power to jail people for not paying their taxes, etc.  It's like changing the Dept of War to the Dept of Defense.  Same thing, different label.

Repeal the income tax - OK, so you'd replace it with what, a VAT, or a FAIR tax which is similar since both ultimately tax consumption.  The plutocrats love taxes on consumption since they consume so little of their income, it will be a huge windfall to them.  It's a tax increase on the middle class and below, a huge tax cut for the top 10th of a percent.  Same as always. 

Audit the Fed:  We agree on this.  Liberals are all over this topic, socialist Bernie Sanders was the biggest proponent of this in the Senate. 

Protect free speech - not sure where this is an issue.  I'm for it, but I'm more worried about indefinite detention and the NSA, etc. like tons of the dirty liberals. 

Executive powers - this is fine, I'm frequently critical of the Obama administration, but "conservatives" don't actually care because they're not told to care.  I mentioned it the other day, and drew the equivalent of blank stares from the board conservatives. 

[Jeremy Roenick]

Get political news from Fox - 77%
Like Beck - 77%
Palin - 75%
Favorable opinion of GOP: 44%

The contradiction is right there in your numbers.  How can folks who identify with the tea party have a 44% favorable opinion (weak IMHO) of the GOP have a 77% and 75% favorable opinion of Beck and Palin?  They ARE the Republican establishment.  Either 3/4's of the tea party movement is this blind to the truth, or I doubt the validity of the people polled actually being "tea party supporters".

The tea party movement in general is pretty smart to old school GOP politicians.  They've been seen running them out of town halls and other tea party events...

Barrett booed at Greenville Tea Party

[NCVol]

The contradiction is right there in your numbers.  How can folks who identify with the tea party have a 44% favorable opinion (weak IMHO) of the GOP have a 77% and 75% favorable opinion of Beck and Palin?  They ARE the Republican establishment.  Either 3/4's of the tea party movement is this blind to the truth, or I doubt the validity of the people polled actually being "tea party supporters".

The tea party movement in general is pretty smart to old school GOP politicians.  They've been seen running them out of town halls and other tea party events...

I vote for "blind to the truth!"

Look at that poll again.  The 'activists' - the ones actually showing up at rallies - like Palin, Fox News, and Beck MORE than the mere Tea Party 'supporters.'

This is also part of the poll, but it doesn't break out the activists from mere supporters.



Ron Paul, the original Tea Party candidate, comes in last, behind Bush, and McCain, and most of the supporters don't even have an opinion of RP, who is by far, IMO, the person most consistent about all the issues the Tea Party faithful are supposed to care about, including spending, wars, civil liberties, taxes, the Fed, the gold standard, etc. 

Bush gets a 57-27 favorable/unfavorable score!  Looks like a poll of the right wing of the GOP to me... 

[Jeremy Roenick]

Ron Paul, the original Tea Party candidate, comes in last, behind Bush, and McCain, and most of the supporters don't even have an opinion of RP, who is by far, IMO, the person most consistent about all the issues the Tea Party faithful are supposed to care about, including spending, wars, civil liberties, taxes, the Fed, the gold standard, etc.

On this we can both agree.  FOX News and the republican establishment have gone out of their way to discredit, attack and otherwise marginalize Ron Paul (and now Rand).  They won't be walking robots for the Republican party, and that's a big threat to the establishment.

I still think MOST tea party supporters can spot a wolf in sheep's clothing.  I've seen the shout down too many republican dinosaurs the last two years.  The blinders are being lifted, slowly but surely.